Author Topic: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015  (Read 37424 times)

Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2016, 06:16 AM »
Sure, the very beginning was about the EU, but all my points about TFA have been based entirely on fact, and purely related to TFA. Starkiller Base is impossible and impractical. Kylo's lightsaber is as much a danger to him as to his enemies. I've conceded that the saber does make sense, because apparently it's explained in the film, and you could have just said that instead of pointing and laughing at lightsaber whips. I still haven't read anything that suggests the base is anything more than Snoke's wet dream, though :P

I have no doubt the film's fun to watch for a couple of hours, if you don't think too hard about what's actually happening and how, but if it's a truly good film, that can stand on its own two feet, it should answer all the relevant questions. You have to defend your position on its own merits, rather than justifying flaws by pointing at other flaws somewhere else.

I don't let things slide in the OT or EU, but if we start discussing everything wrong with them we'll be here all year.

And as I pointed out, the Rey/Kylo spoiler was getting a bit more into the story than I could discuss, meaning I didn't know if it was explained. I won't torrent the film until it comes out on disc, because I don't want to watch it on a low-quality cam recording.
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Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2016, 08:25 AM »
Also, this is the second time in 50 years that the Jedi have been wiped out. What's the point of them if they're so easy to eradicate? :P
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Offline ChrisGrim

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2016, 08:29 PM »
Sure, the very beginning was about the EU, but all my points about TFA have been based entirely on fact, and purely related to TFA. Starkiller Base is impossible and impractical. Kylo's lightsaber is as much a danger to him as to his enemies. I've conceded that the saber does make sense, because apparently it's explained in the film, and you could have just said that instead of pointing and laughing at lightsaber whips. I still haven't read anything that suggests the base is anything more than Snoke's wet dream, though :P

I have no doubt the film's fun to watch for a couple of hours, if you don't think too hard about what's actually happening and how, but if it's a truly good film, that can stand on its own two feet, it should answer all the relevant questions. You have to defend your position on its own merits, rather than justifying flaws by pointing at other flaws somewhere else.

I don't let things slide in the OT or EU, but if we start discussing everything wrong with them we'll be here all year.

And as I pointed out, the Rey/Kylo spoiler was getting a bit more into the story than I could discuss, meaning I didn't know if it was explained. I won't torrent the film until it comes out on disc, because I don't want to watch it on a low-quality cam recording.

It is not impossible. Though, I may give you impractical. I've given possible explanations for its construction though. But, this is why the EU and OT are important to this discussion. Because you seem very willing to suspend your disbelief with them, even going so far as to rationalize or ignore them, but then you refuse to give TFA the same latitude.

They are all Star Wars products, and as such you need to view them consistently and fairly. And, perhaps most importantly, with an open mind.

And let's be honest... lightsaber whips is a good comparable when an EU fan starts ripping on the cross guard, lol.

Based on that definition none of the SW films stand up. Too much is unexplained or unexplainable without having to read the books or the former EU... Especially as information is presented over the course of 3-6 films and multiple books and not ever just the one. So you can't say any one SW movie stands on its own because it heavily relies on the others to tell parts of the story. So how can you judge TFA on that same level when it is 1 of 3?

That's an inconsistency in judgement. Episode 4 is the only one that maybe stands on its own without the need for the others, but even that has MANY questions left unexplained and unanswered... So, you can't very well expect Ep7 to do what no other SW film has really done.

Also, finally, there is the DVD screener leak. DVD quality. I've seen it (for my 4th and 5th viewings of the movie, 3 in theatres) and it is good. No floating heads or random people talking or the cameraman hiding the camera when someone walks down the aisle lol.



Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2016, 06:28 AM »
You have no idea what I accept in the OT and EU and what I don't, because I haven't told you anything about that, except that I like the lore that's built up around it, as a whole. That doesn't mean the whole thing's perfect, of course: anything from TFA that I don't like is also bad in the EU and OT, I'll freely admit that. I may be one of only a few people here who only considers the OT to be decent films rather than fantastic works of art, and for Star Wars as a whole, I've always been far more interested in the over-arching lore than in individual stories.

As Vingtor pointed out, the Emperor could have brought in slave labour from across the galaxy to build the Death Stars, and he could have commanded every shipyard in the galaxy to start churning out durasteel plates, and it wouldn't have cost him a thing. And it still took at least 15 years total to build both, assuming he didn't begin immediately after the Clone Wars. Snoke has no such authority, so even with double the time, he'd be hard-pressed to complete a single deathstar, let alone build something on the scale of Starkiller Base. The only way he could do it is with off-screen movie magic :P

The OT set the standard for Star Wars technology and limitations, by showing that the Empire was so powerful and impressive that it could build a space station the size of a small moon. Once that was established, and it was shown that this is really the peak of current technology, it makes sense that they'd be able to build another one and, having learned from previous mistakes, they could build it a bit bigger and more quickly. Skip forward 30 years and suddenly someone with far fewer resources and a smaller potential workforce has built something 10 times as impressive. Unless there's a detailed explanation as to why technology has advanced at such a rapid pace, especially considering that Prequel tech is almost exactly the same as OT tech, it's much harder to swallow such a feat in an existing universe than if they'd created a new universe in which they start out by saying 'This is possible.'

I don't like lightsaber whips from an aesthetic point of view, because they just look clunky and horrible, but then I don't like regular whips as weapons, either. But that's just a matter of opinion and personal taste. My main opposition to Kylo's saber, after you confirmed that the side bits are, in fact, vents rather than a guard, was technical, because it's just badly made and risks exploding as soon as one of the vents gets damaged or blocked. But I've accepted that, because Scalarik explained the reason for it, using only events from TFA rather than trying to deflect my concern by pointing at a flaw in the EU.

Do you have a link to that torrent? I've looked but could only find cam copies :o
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Offline *<JO>*Scalarik

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2016, 08:44 AM »
I agree that Starkiller base is a bit much. Of course the fact it is based on a planet, makes it easier to accept they *might* have been able to build something of that scale. What I would like, is that the base was discovered from the unknown regions (the remnants of the Empire are looking for something in the first Aftermath book). However, in the movie General Hux, speaking to First Order says "this thing you have built", undermining this theory.
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Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2016, 09:58 AM »
What I would like, is that the base was discovered from the unknown regions (the remnants of the Empire are looking for something in the first Aftermath book).

That would have been great ;D
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Offline *<JO>*RaegnaMari

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2016, 10:15 AM »
I agree that Starkiller base is a bit much. Of course the fact it is based on a planet, makes it easier to accept they *might* have been able to build something of that scale. What I would like, is that the base was discovered from the unknown regions (the remnants of the Empire are looking for something in the first Aftermath book). However, in the movie General Hux, speaking to First Order says "this thing you have built", undermining this theory.

Yeah... I did some reading about that base. This is the same universe that had the Death Stars, I can accept those, they make sense. But I can't count the number of times my palm has met my face while reading the description of the tech and mechanics. Let's get one thing straight. The technology in Star Wars is stagnated. It has been the same for the last few thousand years, they have reached the highest point. Clones were hardly new, they just weren't mass produced for moral reasons. The closest we got to new technology emerging were in fact the Death Stars, which in essence was "Let's make the biggest laser we can make, and build a massive ship around it. Make it shaped like a sphere because I said so". The EU had Darksaber, which was essentially the weapon part of the Death Star without all the other fluff.

Anyway, the stuff about Starkiller base is just crazy. It's insane. I'll even ignore the fact that they somehow strapped engines to a bloody planet. That by itself is just ridiculous. Even if it's a small planet. Sure, it's powered by suns. Great. It absorbs suns, stores the energy in THE PLANETARY CORE, and has a big tube which releases the energy into sub-hyperspace. Wait, isn't that just regular space? ((Space + 1) - 1) = Space. Whatever. And because plot, that energy just passes through everything, until it hits a planet. And it's near instant, because it goes through (sub)hyperspace. Fair enough. The Falcon can cover 25,000 Ly in a day at full speed, so clearly hyperspace makes things quite fast. Except this isn't hyperspace, but whatever.

None of it makes sense, and it's way outside the technological capabilities in the Star Wars universe. And it's funny how one of the biggest complaints about the EU was that it went completely crazy in that regard, with crazy weapons. The First Order could have just gone with a Sun Crusher, if they love using suns so much. Just launch a resonance torpedo at it and have some pina coladas as you watch the sun go supernova.

Any even ignoring the technology, Starkiller base literally runs on a form of dark energy they call "quintessence". I can't even.
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Offline *<JO>*RaegnaMari

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2016, 10:16 AM »
What I would like, is that the base was discovered from the unknown regions (the remnants of the Empire are looking for something in the first Aftermath book).

That would have been great ;D
I agree. Ancient races get a pass for using ridiculous tech.
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Offline *<JO>*RaegnaMari

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2016, 10:18 AM »
And yeah, I'm aware that quintessence is a real... hypothetical form of dark energy. I stand by my point, the scientist who called it that, and the Star Wars writer who went with it both deserve a slap.
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Offline *<JO>*Scalarik

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2016, 01:01 PM »
I'll even ignore the fact that they somehow strapped engines to a bloody planet. That by itself is just ridiculous. Even if it's a small planet.

My biggest problem with moving a planet is the atmosphere. You can strap engines on solid structures, such as the Death Star, and move that around. But the atmosphere is only strapped in by gravity, and given my experiences of being in an accelerating car, everything that is not properly strapped in, is affected by forces (or to be exact, the lack of forces :P).

From what I know, ships entering hyperspace accelerate, instead of warping directly. For Starkiller to be even remotely effective, it needs to be able to enter hyperspace. Any sub-lightspeed would take years to travel from star to star. Therefore, there is quite a heavy acceleration, which would leave a cloud of atmosphere behind when the planet is moved about. No wonder it was cold on the planet :P

Would a force field of some kind be a sufficient solution? I dunno. Either way, the base seems quite impractical. And about that laser, why would you even need one? Just eat the sun and blow the energy in any direction, the planets are doomed anyway.

Did the Death Stars have hyperdrives? Does seem quite stupid to not come out of hyperspace on a direct line of fire to Yavin IV.
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Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2016, 05:11 PM »
Did the Death Stars have hyperdrives? Does seem quite stupid to not come out of hyperspace on a direct line of fire to Yavin IV.

Good point. It's almost as if the Empire WANTED the rebels to win :o

And yeah, the atmosphere would most likely be left behind every time the planet moved :P  I don't know if shields work in Hyperspace, in the Star Wars universe, because there's never been a reason for them to do so: ships can't fight or manoeuvre in Hyperspace so all the action happens in normal space.

But like I said earlier: to move such a massive object they'd need the full engine power of every ship in the galaxy. I'm pretty certain the amount of force needed to move an object in any sort of controlled manner increases exponentially with the object's mass. It might not have conventional sub-light engines, but it would certainly also need gyroscopic engines to aim the gun, requiring a massive amount of thrust to rotate the planet at any sort of speed and then again, in the opposite direction, to stop the rotation.
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Offline *<JO>*Ekul

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2016, 06:59 PM »
So I haven't read all the posts in this tread, but here is my response for EU vs this film and various other gaps in SW logic.

First: financials. I don't think that financial constraints were particularly important to the Empire. Their solution to labor shortages? Enslave an entire race (wookies). Their solution for a lack of resources? Most likely just threaten a planet with destruction unless the resources are given up. An authoritarian government like that with such dominant military power won't be terribly worried about paying its subjects for goods/labor. The part that would need to be paid for is knowledge and skill. These were achieved through enslavement/coercion or through rewarding the smartest people with privileges that others didn't have access to. In the EU, some of the super smart scientists were hidden in the Maw and not told the truth about what their inventions were doing. Which led to defection when the possibility arose.

How did the Republic pay Kamino for all of those clones? Was it done because they just loved cloning things or was there a reason? How does Kamino as a society even exist? A hidden planet with the capacity to clone an army of unlimited size? Wouldn't they have just taken over the entire galaxy on their own? I know I would have if I was in their position.

One of the only people who gets paid in SW movies is Han Solo. Remember him loading boxes and boxes of credits onto the Falcon before Luke goes to attack the death star? Why in such a futuristic society can't they pay people electronically? They should have used bitcoin so the empire didn't notice. ;) Most of the other "transactions" seem to be the result of bets and wagers.


EU vs New movies: The EU was great, but it was not written in a way that would allow a good movie. The stories were not written chronologically, so stories written later (but set earlier) include information that could contradict earlier stories, or at least make them very convoluted. I read numerous EU books and really enjoyed them. However, I think that trying to make a movie that could be received by a wide audience, at least some of that needed to be disposed of.

If the EU was going to be used for new movies, I think basing it on the Yuzung Vong would have made some sense. That was an epic story which could have been well adapted for a new movies series. However, the backstory and all of the technological elements that had to be described lent themselves much more to a literary medium.

Writing stories about removing the Imperial warlords from the Core would have been good for movies as well. There were some great settings in those books and it would have been a good follow up to the originals. The actors are too old now, though.

One of my largest complaints about the new movie compared with the EU is the lack of new planets, tech, etc. Essentially one new planet, which is just tattooine. In just the first few chapters of the Thrawn series, there are numerous societies which are introduced and explored. We meet numerous species and learn about their cultures. I think this was missing from the new movie. I am hoping this will change in the next two, and that this first one was to introduce new ideas and plots. I do think there was A TON that was left unexplained with no backstory. I'm hoping that this will be expanded in the new movies and will give us a larger world to play in.

For all of their faults, the prequels did this. GL said in his interview that he always tried to introduce new tech, new planets, new ideas into his movies. He did that. Some of them were bad ideas (Jar Jar), but they at least added to the universe.



For the points about atmosphere and the death star hyperdrive: Yes, the Death Star had a hyperdrive (at least the first one). Most likely it needs time after leaving hyperspace to charge the weapon, which is why it entered on the opposite side of the planet to Yavin IV. Entering on the back, it had some element of surprise and time to charge the weapon and set targeting trajectories. Without scouts, the Rebels wouldn't have known it exited hyperspace with the Death Star hidden behind the planet. If the empire was smart they would have had intradictors and fighters stationed to prevent any scouts from getting back around the planet to alert the base on Yavin IV. In the EU, the Death Star has both hyperdrive and sublight. Not sure about the effectiveness of either. Also - it may have needed to exit hyperspace on that side to get into a safe orbit, without risking crashing into a moon or drifting into a planet.


From my understanding, it would not be possible to bring a planet with an atmosphere into hyperspace. Although Zonama Sekot is an interesting counterpoint. That is a little different because Zonama Sekot was alive. It may have been able to somehow regenerate its atmosphere, or perhaps it never went to hyperspace and just moved around at sublight somehow. A planet accelerating to hyperspace would most likely disintegrate before reaching that speed regardless of the atmosphere. If it didn't the atmosphere would be stripped like on a comet.


TL;DR: SW is full of plot-holes and inconsistencies. Money exists but only when convenient. EU was fun but is too convoluted to make into movies. I wish there was more newness to the Ep. VII (new species, new planets, new tech).
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 07:01 PM by *<JO>*Ekul »



Offline ChrisGrim

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2016, 12:05 AM »
Question for anyone who might know:

The novelizations of the movies, how are they created? Are they done by working off the film or by working off the screenplay?

Because, I'm a chapter and 20+ pages in and I've got to say, there are some pretty key differences. Extended conversations, characterizations are different slightly, and already some things are spelt out that don't get really worked through in the movies (I suspect because they'll come up in either the sequel or Rogue One... Likely Rogue One).

The least spoiler-y example (but, again, tread lightly):

In the movie Unkar Plutt (the alien that trades food for salvage) he's presented as gruff and kind of a jerk. In the book, Rey mentions that while she wants away from him, he enjoys her company. He complements her, calls her by name, and says "That's my girl" after their first in-book (in-movie) transaction...

Now, I get they make him and everything rougher in the movie to show how rough her existence on Jakku is. But, on the other hand, we get that in other moments and ways that maybe Plutt being more caring would have helped some of the criticism's of her. Making him not a jerk and implying maybe he taught her some things or feeds her information as to where to go for salvage and she has someone making sure she stays breathing wouldn't have destroyed her independence or strength. Wouldn't have made her life suck all that much less or be all the less difficult. But, it would have helped take care of some of the question as to how she survived on Jakku from such a young age.

That said... as I read slightly further she notes she can feel his eyes "all over (her)" and now we've gone to creepy uncle territory. They have more interactions later so I may retract all of this later but the non-redacted question remains.

EDIT: Nope. Not a creepy uncle. He calls her "sweetheart", accepts her counterproposal for 100 portions for BB-8... And she accepted! And then only took it back not because it was the right thing but because Plutt had given her a hard time moments before and also he clearly wanted the droid too much and it made her suspicious. And the argument they have after is wonderful...

In short... the book is better (and I still love the movie).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 01:10 AM by ChrisGrim »

Offline ChrisGrim

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2016, 01:30 AM »
I'll even ignore the fact that they somehow strapped engines to a bloody planet. That by itself is just ridiculous. Even if it's a small planet.

My biggest problem with moving a planet is the atmosphere. You can strap engines on solid structures, such as the Death Star, and move that around. But the atmosphere is only strapped in by gravity, and given my experiences of being in an accelerating car, everything that is not properly strapped in, is affected by forces (or to be exact, the lack of forces :P).

From what I know, ships entering hyperspace accelerate, instead of warping directly. For Starkiller to be even remotely effective, it needs to be able to enter hyperspace. Any sub-lightspeed would take years to travel from star to star. Therefore, there is quite a heavy acceleration, which would leave a cloud of atmosphere behind when the planet is moved about. No wonder it was cold on the planet :P

Would a force field of some kind be a sufficient solution? I dunno. Either way, the base seems quite impractical. And about that laser, why would you even need one? Just eat the sun and blow the energy in any direction, the planets are doomed anyway.

Did the Death Stars have hyperdrives? Does seem quite stupid to not come out of hyperspace on a direct line of fire to Yavin IV.

I was thinking about this. On Star Destroyers the hangars have basically a giant open wall that the TIE fighters and whatnot fly in and out of. There is no door, it is not a glass window, the fighters fly in and out without anything being opened or moved and people are capable of walking within the hangar at any given time, even while shuttles and fighters leave (further proving it isn't simply a window or door or that the forcefield needs to be dropped in order for the ships to come and go). It is contained by the same forcefield that I assume contains the artificial gravity so the fighters and personnel don't float around in the hangar.

So... presumably even during the jump to hyperspace the atmosphere doesn't vent out of the hangar, the gravity isn't affected.



Is that not the same basic principal as the Starkiller base? I mean, amplified to a planetary level but would that not be the same thing? The forcefield or shield keeps the atmosphere and artificial gravity in place as they do in the hangar of a Star Destroyer... That would be my guess.

Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2016, 05:28 AM »
There's still the question of scale: a skyscraper doesn't involve the same construction principles as a bungalow, and a planetary shield doesn't use the same principles as a small force field on a hangar. But you're right: it might be possible to achieve a similar result on a grander scale, even if they need to make some serious modifications to how shields are modulated. So that's one aspect of the base that might possibly work if they have some really brilliant scientists working for them. Now try explaining everything else  ::)
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