Author Topic: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015  (Read 37393 times)

Offline *<JO>*RaegnaMari

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2016, 06:18 AM »
Well, to provide a counterargument, I don't think that even Star Destroyers jump into hyperspace on a whim. Even in the Falcon, I seem to recall them strapping in for the jump and for dropping out. I might be wrong, and I probably am, but I feel like they couldn't just stand about for that sort of stuff. There's a lot of inertia. Either way, I feel like a military vessel, especially one of such scale, would likely have protocols for hyperspace jumps. Clearing the fighter bay prior to a jump doesn't seem impossible. We only ever see the hangars in regular space, it also seems quite possible that it would have mechanical doors that shut for hyperspace journeys. You need hull integrity for that sort of stuff, and having an open hangar with people and smaller ships inside seems like a silly idea.

The 2 most likely options in my mind are that

A. the crew leaves the hangar bay in preparation for a jump, walking through airlock doors. (Like the one that closed after Vader killed Ben). The atmosphere vents, and the forcefield drops. Fighter pilots could survive inside their ships.
or
B. more likely, a large door closes the hangar, keeping the atmosphere sealed in, so the crew can carry on working.

Of course, it's quite possible that the forcefield is just that good.
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Offline ChrisGrim

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #106 on: January 07, 2016, 03:58 AM »
There's still the question of scale: a skyscraper doesn't involve the same construction principles as a bungalow, and a planetary shield doesn't use the same principles as a small force field on a hangar. But you're right: it might be possible to achieve a similar result on a grander scale, even if they need to make some serious modifications to how shields are modulated. So that's one aspect of the base that might possibly work if they have some really brilliant scientists working for them. Now try explaining everything else  ::)

What "everything else"? I've explained the lightsaber cross-guard, I've explained Rey vs. Kylo, I've explained how the Jedi are killed, I've explained how the EU is still, technically, in-tact, I've explained how the lightsaber may have survived (I mean, if the EU did it then it is possible...), I've given theories as to how the base was constructed in the 30 years between Ep6 and 7 (which, let's be honest, with a 30 year gap I shouldn't have to explain how it got built... 30 years seems a solid amount of time on its own), and I've explained how financing is generally treated in Star Wars and why it doesn't actually matter to the story... And I just gave a possible, though perhaps not entirely correct, possibility for the atmosphere issue of a hyperdrive planet... And there are many other possibilities.

The only thing I've read that I haven't explained his hyperdrive on a planet.

...Which I assume is similar to hyperdrive on a moon sized base like the Death Star, only bigger. But, I'm no engineer in a galaxy far, far away. I mean, if you are, that's awesome, but I don't quite have the degree or expertise in the technology that makes methink I can add much to this subject. Truthfully, this may be one of those "suspending disbelief" things I've mentioned you may have to do at some point in order to buy in.

Or maybe the book explains it... I haven't read that far.

What else have I not explained, rationalized, or given a strong theory on? I think I'm doing a darn good job of it thus far.

Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #107 on: January 07, 2016, 06:07 AM »
I was just referring to Starkiller Base with that statement, because everyone's been giving far more solid arguments as to why it isn't simply a matter of 'like the Death Star but bigger.' Every piece of technology involved in the creation of Starkiller Base would have had to be invented pretty much from scratch during that 30-year period, before they even began construction. It simply is not possible, according to the technology that's available in the prequels and OT. Especially considering that in the previous 30 years, between ep I and ep IV, technology didn't advance at all and may actually have regressed a little bit.

They've broken one of the most important rules of writing: keep the laws of the universe consistent. Despite all of their flaws, that's one thing that the prequels actually managed to get right.

Like I said: I don't doubt that it's a fun film to watch, and I most likely will enjoy it when I can finally get my hands on a copy, but there is absolutely no way that Starkiller base exists. Scalarik's suggestion that it could have been a remnant from a super-advanced ancient race would have made all these concerns go away, but the film specifically states that it was built by the First Order.

Starkiller Base doesn't exist, and the galaxy was never in danger. Hooray!! ::)
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Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #108 on: January 07, 2016, 07:43 AM »
The Death Stars were large, but they were mostly hollow due to all the corridors, rooms, air ducts etc, so they weren't particularly massive and while they were bigger than any other ship in the fleet their overall mass would only have been a few times greater. This means the Death Star's engines would be basically the same as those of any capital ship, if just slightly bigger and more numerous.

Starkiller Base is a planet. It's solid pretty much all the way through, except for the actual base portion. It's dense. It's MASSIVE. It's mass would be hundreds if not thousands of times greater than one of the Death Stars.

Forget about Star Wars engineering and just use Google. Our moon is barely more than 1/100 the mass of the Earth, and both bodies are solid objects, made of basically the same materials. On top of this, the Moon's diameter is over 3,000 km. That's more than 21 times the diameter of the first Death Star. Even if Starkiller Base was built on a planet of that size it would be tough to believe that they could muster enough engine power to move it. But as it's clearly stated that the base is a planet, not a moon, it seems unlikely that it would be much smaller than Earth. That would mean a diameter of almost 13,000 km: 93 times the diameter of the first Death Star. Clearly, at that sort of scale, it's no longer a case of 'just make it bigger'. They need to invent an entirely new form of locomotion before they can just strap engines to a planet and make it move.
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Offline *<JO>*Scalarik

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2016, 08:14 AM »
This is shown in VII, just for reference:



I believe the planet is mainly hollow, the void inside is where the energy is stored. Still, as it is so much larger than the Death Star, even if it indeed is fully hollow, it would be much heavier.
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Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2016, 08:25 AM »
Huh, well if it is indeed mainly hollow, that means the First order would have had to actively hollow out the planet, which would involve even more work than I expected :o

But yeah, the size means that even if the overall structure is a perfectly scaled-up version of the Death Star, it would likely have at least 300 times the mass of the first Death Star, so my point still stands ;D
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Offline *<JO>*RaegnaMari

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2016, 12:58 PM »
Here's something to think about: Is Starkiller Base limited to flying within the habitable zone of each system it's in? I mean, even ignoring that it flies about, somehow keeping its oxygen. There is a very specific distance from the sun where you can survive. So either they fly at veeeeery carefully designed orbits, or the whole planet has heating and air conditioning  :P

It would be so much more PRACTICAL to build a bigger death star, really.
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Offline ChrisGrim

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #112 on: January 08, 2016, 12:02 AM »
Huh, well if it is indeed mainly hollow, that means the First order would have had to actively hollow out the planet, which would involve even more work than I expected :o

But yeah, the size means that even if the overall structure is a perfectly scaled-up version of the Death Star, it would likely have at least 300 times the mass of the first Death Star, so my point still stands ;D
.

You literally went from "the only reason the Death Star works is because it is mostly hollow" to "Starkiller base is mostly hollow?! That's even worse! But also I'm still right"...

Star Wars takes a ton of suspension of disbelief, even with the rules they create themselves and the technologies. To make any of it work you have to be willing to buy in and you seem to be actively trying not to.

Be auss of that, I don't think any explanation will work for you. You've already decided it is impossible and as such refuse to accept it. Which makes being on the side of trying to explain things, including Starkiller base, futile.

You don't want to like the new EU or the new trilogy, I can't make you. Pretend it doesn't exist? Go for it. I'm not the one missing out.

But if I am spending time deconstructing what is and is not possible in a Star Wars movie I'd have to be doing it for someone who hasn't already decided anything he hears is wrong.

This must be what Menelaos felt like debating with me when I was much younger...

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2016, 05:35 AM »

...

This must be what Menelaos felt like debating with me when I was much younger...

Haha, if he'd only read this!

~ Master Valérii

Offline *<JO>*Tabaet

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #114 on: January 08, 2016, 07:00 AM »
Huh, well if it is indeed mainly hollow, that means the First order would have had to actively hollow out the planet, which would involve even more work than I expected :o

But yeah, the size means that even if the overall structure is a perfectly scaled-up version of the Death Star, it would likely have at least 300 times the mass of the first Death Star, so my point still stands ;D
.

You literally went from "the only reason the Death Star works is because it is mostly hollow" to "Starkiller base is mostly hollow?! That's even worse! But also I'm still right"...

Star Wars takes a ton of suspension of disbelief, even with the rules they create themselves and the technologies. To make any of it work you have to be willing to buy in and you seem to be actively trying not to.

Be auss of that, I don't think any explanation will work for you. You've already decided it is impossible and as such refuse to accept it. Which makes being on the side of trying to explain things, including Starkiller base, futile.

You don't want to like the new EU or the new trilogy, I can't make you. Pretend it doesn't exist? Go for it. I'm not the one missing out.

But if I am spending time deconstructing what is and is not possible in a Star Wars movie I'd have to be doing it for someone who hasn't already decided anything he hears is wrong.

This must be what Menelaos felt like debating with me when I was much younger...

You know what? I was going to write a huge and detailed response to this, explaining how you completely missed my point and you're ignoring any facts that get in the way of your own argument, but it would clearly be a waste of time. Suspension of disbelief only works when the world is first created and the rules established. They broke the rules.

I will, however, say that you haven't successfully argued a single point either in this thread or our pm conversation: the points I've conceded were explained by other people and the rest actually do fall into 'suspension of disbelief'.
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Offline ChrisGrim

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2016, 12:21 AM »

...

This must be what Menelaos felt like debating with me when I was much younger...

Haha, if he'd only read this!

~ Master Valérii

Hahah :D

Offline ChrisGrim

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2016, 12:29 AM »
Huh, well if it is indeed mainly hollow, that means the First order would have had to actively hollow out the planet, which would involve even more work than I expected :o

But yeah, the size means that even if the overall structure is a perfectly scaled-up version of the Death Star, it would likely have at least 300 times the mass of the first Death Star, so my point still stands ;D
.

You literally went from "the only reason the Death Star works is because it is mostly hollow" to "Starkiller base is mostly hollow?! That's even worse! But also I'm still right"...

Star Wars takes a ton of suspension of disbelief, even with the rules they create themselves and the technologies. To make any of it work you have to be willing to buy in and you seem to be actively trying not to.

Be auss of that, I don't think any explanation will work for you. You've already decided it is impossible and as such refuse to accept it. Which makes being on the side of trying to explain things, including Starkiller base, futile.

You don't want to like the new EU or the new trilogy, I can't make you. Pretend it doesn't exist? Go for it. I'm not the one missing out.

But if I am spending time deconstructing what is and is not possible in a Star Wars movie I'd have to be doing it for someone who hasn't already decided anything he hears is wrong.

This must be what Menelaos felt like debating with me when I was much younger...

You know what? I was going to write a huge and detailed response to this, explaining how you completely missed my point and you're ignoring any facts that get in the way of your own argument, but it would clearly be a waste of time. Suspension of disbelief only works when the world is first created and the rules established. They broke the rules.

I will, however, say that you haven't successfully argued a single point either in this thread or our pm conversation: the points I've conceded were explained by other people and the rest actually do fall into 'suspension of disbelief'.

I have and others have but you chose to ignore it. I gave 4 possible ways the saber was saved, you disregarded all of them because you want jt to be impossible. The crossguarded saber and the atmosphere, both things I argued and may have proven possible. Also, I argued about financing in Star Wars and explained why it works or doesn't need to based on the rules of the universe. Also explained Rey's abilities, Kylo vs. Rey and why it goes down as it does, and why Kylo carries a saber at all. I explained how it might be possible for Starkiller base to be built. I've explained the fall of Luke's Order.

You've decided clearly to forget all of that and say I've proven nothing.

That's like 8-10 things right there..

But yeah... I've proven nothing. Sure.

Offline *<JO>*Scalarik

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - December 16th 2015
« Reply #117 on: February 02, 2016, 11:56 AM »
I've seen TFA four times in theater now. Do I win something? Or can someone top that? :D
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